Podcast #87: Building an Internet for Machines

Good day, this is Ken Forster with another edition of our Momenta Digital Leadership podcasts. Today it’s my great pleasure to introduce Frank Mong, COO at Helium, where he’s responsible for sales, marketing, and business development. Frank has over 20 years of experience in cybersecurity, networking, and software, having held senior leadership roles at leading companies such as HP Security, Silver Spring Networks, Trend Micro and Symantec. Just prior to Helium, Frank served as Senior Vice President of product and solutions marketing net, Palo Alto Networks. I’ve talked with Frank today about three topics:

1. His own digital industry journey and perspective.

2. He works as COO at Helium which is a really cool company building an internet of machines, and we’d love to have a deep dive understanding what Helium is doing.

3. A general topic of low power-wide area, and as our listeners will know, Momenta has a lot of perspectives on that, and is thinking very long term in terms of investments on this space as well.

So, those are the three topics today. With that in mind, Frank welcome to our digital leadership podcast, and maybe as a start tell me a little bit about your professional journey, and how it has informed your views.

Well Ken thank you so much for having me, I appreciate being on. So, my background and journey may be very similar to others in tech. I actually started off as an engineer when I graduated from college at UC Davis here in the San Francisco Bay area, and when I graduated, I actually worked for a company called Adoptech, as a Chief Designer. That was a very short-lived journey for me, I realized I preferred to be in front of customers and talking about problems and solutions. So, I went to a friend’s company called Ignite Technologies, and Ignite Technologies back then was focused on installing firewalls and getting customers up and running on Outlook or email, certainly Microsoft Exchange, setting up data centers for small companies or dot-coms.

That kind of got me into security and cyber security, we were acquired by SonicWall shortly within about two to three years of me joining that company. That really brought me into this world of cybersecurity which I’ve spent about the last 20-years in. I took a break from cybersecurity to join a late stage startup called Silver Spring Networks that you mentioned, and then took that company public. Once we went public, stepped back into cybersecurity at HP and Palo Alto Networks, but I ultimately ended up at Helium, which for me I think is probably the best outcome out of that entire journey.

Very good, I love it, chip to cloud, that’s a great experience base, not atypical for Silicon Valley entrepreneurs such as yourself. If you think about the red thread of your own experience, you mentioned chips, datacenters, cybersecurity networks, and ultimately all of that converging into Helium. What are some of the trends you’ve seen relative to each of those areas, leading us up to today?

I think it’s very interesting that I’ve lived through, and this probably tells folks how long I’ve been in the industry, I’ve lived through this centralization effect of computing, and decentralization effect of computing from centralized exchange servers, to where your applications on your PC are fully centralized compute on AWS, Azure, and GCP. Throughout the evolutions it feels like the edge, or maybe in vernacular from networking PC World, the compute side, the device side seems to get more and more powerful in every turn, in every phase or wave of the change, which I find to be incredible. It’s very hard to believe that just 21 or 25 years ago even, we really couldn’t do a whole lot at home on a desktop. And today we’ve got things like android and iOS that can power, I don’t know, can do the work of, I don’t know what, thousands of folks, the compute power is incredible on these edge devices or end devices. So, I think that macro evolution has been an incredible perspective for me at least. Maybe for past generations it’s like going from horses to cars or something, I don’t know but it’s pretty incredible!

We have a specific piece as part of Momenta Ventures on Edge computing, it’s really Edge compute and edge communications, the two together, two of the three as they say of Fog Computing, the other part is of course storage at the Edge. Tell me, how has that then converged to bring you to Helium, and maybe starting off with a description of what Helium does when we talk about an internet of machines.

Sure. Over two years ago, almost two and a half years ago, when I decided that I wanted to do something different, not necessarily change careers but I wanted to go try another startup before I hit the end of my career, and no sort of Gen Z or millennial wants to hire me. I thought I actually go give a startup a crack again, I started looking and I probably looked at 40-50 different startup companies. I was lucky enough to get connected with Vinod Khosla where he introduced me to the entire portfolio, Bruce Armstrong one of his operating partners hand-held me through a ton of different companies that he was sitting on the board of, and Helium was one of them.

In fact, Helium was the first company I talked to, and the interesting part about Helium was that it was an interesting phase. At the time Helium was four years into its journey, and Shawn Fanning and Amir Haleem who started Helium had this idea or desire to create a network or internet that connected IoT things, or IoT devices, very easily and very cheaply in over miles of range. That was their dream, and that dream was born out of their life and where they were in their life. They got married, they were all starting to have kids, and so going from entrepreneur tech person to now father, and they thought hey why can’t I have the technology to help deal with this baby. I want to know if the baby is hungry, the baby pooped its diaper, or the baby’s unhappy for some reason, I’d like to know why.

And so they went down this journey with a friend of theirs Chris Bruce who started a company called Sproutling, to figure out how to create a baby monitor that as tech fathers knew what was wrong, and how to solve the problem right away, instead of probably what you and I did Ken, was we had to figure out why the baby was crying, and an hour later we’re about to kill ourselves, and wished to god the baby would stop crying, and we didn’t know why. Trying to solve that problem, and they couldn’t do it. So, they started building hardware and software, and firmware, and they realized trying to build something on Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, cellular, was actually very difficult.

I think Wi-Fi and Bluetooth solved that problem, cellular did not, cellular is still very proprietary, they weren’t very good tool kits, if they were, they were very expensive, certainly not for the hobbyist. So, they thought, ‘Well, let’s start a company, let’s create a business problem so that anyone, any other tech dad like us can just easily build product and applications that just connect, without all this headache and nightmares, with royalty fees and proprietary code. So, that was the for the genesis of Helium, I felt that was quite interesting.

Now, when Amir and I first met about two and a half years ago, after 20 or 30 minutes talking to him, as cool as this was/is, I told him I’m probably the wrong person, I’m coming from a cybersecurity background, I did a stint at Silver Spring Networks, I had a little bit of road rash from Silver Spring. It wasn’t bad but the time I spent, the three years there really selling to utilities and talking through with these big slow-moving giants was painful, I don’t like slow-moving things. So, I felt like that wasn’t my kind of deal, and I thought maybe the whole world of IoT was like that, and so I told Amir I’m the wrong guy, I’ve brought no value to this situation that they’re in, but I gave him some recommendations about who he should talk to.

So, I think he went off and talked to a bunch of folks, but it turns out the folks he talked to told Amir, ‘He’s going to hire me’, and so this went on for three months! Finally, after talking to 49 other companies I caved because I didn’t think anything else was that interesting, and this was very-very interesting. So, I ended up at Helium, and when I joined, I realized that they actually had a really interesting scheme on how to actually build a network. I thought, ‘Oh gosh, is this going to be another Sigfox thing, is this going to be another themes network like a Telco model? Is this going to take forever to build something? Like a network isn’t easy to build, it costs billions of dollars, how do we do this?

And so, Amir in the development team really got very smart about how to solve the problem to the question, ‘How do you build a network without spending billions of dollars, how could we do that?’ The answer to that question, after I think they brainstormed over a bottle of whiskey; its Oban, Oban 14 is the exact year. Oban 14 year, we actually have the bottle still with the serial number, it’s empty now but we kept it! That bottle believe it or not, inspired one of our engineers, his code name is Bones, I don’t want to give real names only because I don’t want people recruiting our guys, I love them too much, Bones is his slack name. Bones came up with a great idea of let’s put Bitcoin in our gateways, in our long range, low powered gateways. Let’s put Bitcoin on there, because if we can put Bitcoin on there, everyone will want to basically buy one of these and put it in their home, and it would create the long range and lots of coverage.

Now the challenge of bitcoin is, everyone that’s familiar with crypto and crypto mining knows, is Bitcoin uses so much power that it could be as much as a city in Nevada or something, a lot of power, and so there’s other challenges to that. So, after looking at Bitcoin and looking at Ethereum and looking at Stellar and a bunch of what we call protocol chains, the guys at Helium decided, ‘We’re going to have to build our own blockchain, none of these work’. Because the whole point of Helium building a network would be, that a decentralized approach to building the network would require some kind of trust, in some kind of way for the person that’s providing the network coverage, to prove that they are actually providing network coverage. And then you don’t want that network cover to disappear, so you want them to prove that they are where they claim to be. 

So we ultimately had to create a Helium blockchain with the premise that proof of coverage was our way of bringing together disparate individuals, and disparate Helium hotspots in this case, together into one global network, so that they can prove to each other, via other blockchain, that 1) they were providing cover, and 2) that they were real and they were really located where they claimed to be. So, you can think of that as network health, network availability. So that’s what our blockchain is built on. Now, that idea it turns out was a great idea. What we’ve done since the birth of that idea is, we created something called the Helium Hotspot, and that Hotspot has two purposes; it provides LoRaWAN coverage, it’s using a lower chip module inside, provides LoRaWAN coverage for miles and miles, the same spec as what LoRaWAN has. On the other hand, before devices are actually out there, because this is always the problem with building something is you don’t have users, before you’ve got consumption you’ve got to convince people to just build it and then they will come eventually, hopefully.

The idea of building and they will come, in this case is powered by the incentive that the blockchain creates. And so that blockchain now mind proof of coverage, even if there’s no consumption of the network, and so as a hotspot owner when you buy a Hotspot you put it in your home, your Hotspot immediately starts to prove itself to the network, thereby mining the crypto currency called Helium HNT, and for that you’re mining – you’re gaining tokens. Once devices are using a network and consuming the network coverage, you’re also going to mine the crypto currency HNT for providing coverage for those devices. So, we had to solve that cold start problem to convince early adopters to come in and build the network, before there was consumption.

So, that’s the idea, and then that idea is now reality. We launched October last year, we’ve sold out as of January 1^st, 2020, we sold out over 3,800 units something like that, in a matter of months. Now the coverage is in 745 cities, we’re in all 50 states, we’re also in Puerto Rico, we’re expanding into Canada, hopefully we’ll be expanding into Europe soon, we’ve got more hotspots coming in May. So, I think I answered more than just your question of why Helium, but that’s where we are today, and that’s the magical feeling, that’s why I’m with the company.

Yes, I can see that, it makes a lot of sense. Shawn Fanning of course of Napster fame, you think about decentralized file sharing, the ability to be able to monetize or tokenize if you will at the edge, so you can incent people to setup these gateways ultimately. And now I think we’re ready to complete that out, the leveraging of a standard if you will protocol out there in the form of LoRaWAN, it’s a winning solution. I know it’s an overused analogy but its effectively the uberization if you will of a city grid or network, you have people participating and they’re getting rewarded for that, and of course they’re gaining status if you will in the network, depending on how well they’re keeping up their KPIs in that regard. So, it makes a lot of sense actually, it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah absolutely, and I have to tell you, I don’t think this could have happened without all of the elements that we had, and you mentioned one of them which is Shawn Fanning’s DNA from that peer-to-peer history that he has with Napster and music sharing. And Amir Haleem coming from the game world, he comes from Quake and a bunch of video games, that when you think about video games, video games is all about incentive and engagement as well. So that DNA is injected into the company, and so when you think about you’ve got peer-to-peer networking, you’ve got this gaming background with incentives and engagement, and we’ve got quite a bit of cyber security background as well now in the company, when you put the three together, the funny thing is you end up with Helium!

I love it! So, clearly there’s a scale plan as you mentioned geographically, you’re still CONUS if you will, and you can certainly go out from there. I guess how deep of a stack do you also think that you may be able to scale in, in this regard, providing edge connectivity, but of course you mentioned security and maybe even touching on network-based applications, I could imagine could be an interesting space as well.

This is probably good that Helium has taken six years of twists and turns to get to this point, because I think to answer your question directly, Helium is not going to build an end-to-end solution for IoT, that isn’t the role Helium is going to play. I think after six years of trying to do that, trying to build protocols, trying all kinds of radios, we tried everything. We went from trying Lora, to trying TI, to trying LoRaWAN, to building our own protocol called LongFi, to some other random Fi’s and modulation schemes. We tried everything, and we came back to LoRa and LoRaWAN ultimately.

I think the experience of trying everything tells us that what we’re good at as a company ultimately, is creating peer-to-peer and creating incentives to build networks, that’s what we’re good at, and that’s what we’re going to stick to. So, to do that we understand as a company we can’t build end-to-end solutions, however, we should enable everyone else to do so. That’s why Helium has open sourced everything, we’ve open-sourced our hotspots, our firmware, our software, our blockchain, our provisioning tools called Helium Console. We have a visualization tool that we use for mostly sales engagements called Helium Cargo, and Cargo is now opensource as well. We open source everything, everything is available to anyone, its all-in out GitHub, GitHub.com/Helium.

Our goal as a company is to ensure that code, that knowhow gets in the hands of all developers around the world, we want everyone to use it and to build on it. And I think that’s important because that tells us as Helium where our fit is, and what we can do to help the rest of the ecosystem within LoRaWAN and beyond. We don’t want to be a network server, we don’t want to be a joint server, these are terminology from the LoRaWAN world. We have no interest in building devices, ultimately, we’re just not as good as the others that are doing it, we think there’s people and companies out there that do a great job, and that’s not us. What we are really good at based on the results I think that speaks for itself, because we’re really good at building networks incredibly fast, at large scale. That’s all based on the premise of the incentive, the blockchain that we’ve created.

Let’s go back to the DNA of the company, baby-monitoring. So, let’s say now we’re present day, I have the same scenario I want to go through now, how easy is it now using what you guys have provided.

I think it’s incredibly easy. There’s a couple of vendors out there that are creating this baby wristband, or baby ankle-bracelet that gives you all kinds of data, temperature, heartbeat, movement, as sophisticated as an Apple watch probably. They’re building this tech on LoRa and LoRaWAN, but in most cases at least in the United States this is true, there has not been a unifying Network in the United States to connect that LoRaWAN device, that’s always been a challenge. But today, at least in 745 cities with Helium Hotspots out there, that challenge has been solved, not everywhere, but certainly in 745 cities it’s been solved.

So, the company that’s building these devices, they don’t actually need to worry about selling a gateway or figuring out the coverage problem. The network coverage that’s listening for that device is there, they just need to build it now, they just need it to connect that’s all, and the connection process is nearly Pug n’ Play, its super-easy. So, at some point I should show you or walk you through a whole demo, I’m not even the technical guy here, and I can connect to a LoRaWAN device in minutes!

You’re certainly the exampleist my friend! I was fascinated by your early work with Silver Spring Networks, we knew them well, machine-to-machine network for smart metering, and so far, what we’ve talked about relative to helium is B2C, or business to consumer cases. Do you foresee a business-to-business play, even one that might play in the smart metering space in the future for Helium?

Absolutely. I think the best way for your audience to think about it is, what Helium wants to do is take the LoRaWAN idea, plug blockchain in there and make that as big as Linux, just max it. We want it to be opensource like how Linux is open sourced. Helium is essentially going to be a red hat to Linux, we will hit the Helium to LoRaWAN plus Helium blockchain, that’s what we want to do. So, if you think about that, that means ultimately Helium’s value is helping enterprises stand up their capability, leveraging LoRaWAN, leveraging the blockchain, leveraging the network, the public network that’s available to them, and build all kinds of applications and devices.

We’re not going to build those devices or applications, however Helium can provide professional services, we can provide engineering work needed to customize certain parts, so that an enterprise can consume it easily. That’s our goal, our goal is ultimately to be a company that can provide value on top of this platform that’s now opensource. And by the way, we are happy to have plenty of players offer that same value, we don’t care, we don’t see any of this as competitive. We believe that the more players there are, the better the chance of some project that’s opensource becomes very pervasive. The goal here is to become absolutely viral I guess is the best word for it.

And LoRaWAN lends itself really well to that, because obviously we think of it as operator optional standard, you can deploy an operator, you can deploy it in a city, you can deploy it in a private or a hybrid format, and it gives you immense amounts of flexibility.

So, as you think about some of the license spectrum standards, we hear a lot about 5G, and of course along with that comes NBIoT, LTEM, that the toko’s have been pushing as will be the direction, and ultimately where they hope most of the world of Low Power Wide Area will go. What’s your perspective on that? 1) Do you foresee it as coming as fast as they do, and 2) Is it a complementary play to what you guys are doing?

So my opinion isn’t fully formed, because I haven’t read everything out there that I can. But the things I’ve read about 5G indicate to me that its servicing a different purpose. I could be wrong on this, but I believe the way the 5G stack has been created to date is that it’s primarily meant to replace high-speed internet, that today its serviced with mostly cable and fiber optics. I think 5G is meant to replace that, which means you and I instead of having a cable guy come over and have a modem in our house that’s connected via a copper wire or fiber optics, instead of having that we would have essentially a 5G gateway in our home, that connects the entire house to the internet using 5G technology. That’s my perception of it and I could be wrong about this, and to me that doesn’t add value to the IoT problem.

When I think of IoT, I think the challenges are range and battery life. We’re not dealing with iPhones, or iPads, or smart TVs where there’s limitless battery, limitless power, we’re dealing with little sensors, whether it be a temperature sensor, a cellarometer, air quality sensor, window sensor, those sensors run typically on batteries. When something runs on a battery and its providing some value that’s very specific, you want those batteries to last forever, because the last thing you want to do is go change your battery, 1) you forget, that’s the biggest problem, and 2), you don’t know how to do it because there’s been so many years.

So, you want to solve that, and I don’t think 5G or cellular in general can solve that, because of the logic and the way they connect, they require persistent connection which drains batteries. Like your smartphone and my smartphone, we’ve got to charge that thing every day, because its maintaining a persistent connection that draws a lot of power. So, we think that LoRaWAN, LoRa and other long-range, low-power spectrums and protocols are built to solve that problem of battery life and range. And 5G by the way doesn’t have miles of range, I think its within your block or something, its pretty short range, so I don’t actually see it as competitive to IoT, and certainly not competitive to LoRa or LoRaWAN , only because of my perception of 5G is for a different purpose.

Yeah, and I think we generally see them as complimentary, 5G being primarily low latency, high bandwidth, and certainly that’s good fit for a lot of use cases especially in the industrial areas that we work at. But the other side of it is something we call smart spaces, it one of our investment thesis and focus areas, so it’s a smart building, smart city, smart farms, and there the pattern of deployment looks more like what MIT calls smart dust, you want to literally grow these sensors pretty much everywhere, have them enact and act in unison to provide a better view of an environment if you will. That’s what Lora and LoRaWAN particularly works well with, and your guys deploying models is brilliant in terms of how to get those networks deployed.

Let me ask, we’ve got several companies we’re invested in, NanoThings is a good example, in New York, they do a disposable one-way tag ultimately that measures location, and then sensors for condition if you will, like temperature and shock, but they naturally would work within  distribution centers, retail stores, as cold chain tracking. Would Helium be applicable in a private networking or corporate networking style situation like that?

I think Helium is really applicable to anyone, whether it’s a large corporation or a public network. This is probably a new idea to most enterprises, and that’s why we’ve adjusted some of our models to accommodate. But the idea that as a large enterprise, and I’ll give you an example, like Nestlé, ReadyRefresh is still water division at Nestlé, they would not need to build a network in order to ship smart water delivery systems. So, many companies and homes especially in the United States have water dispensers, and they have 5-10-gallon water jugs delivered by Nestlé when they’re out of water. The way that’s done today is you place a call or there’s a scheduled delivery time and the truck just shows up, and many times what happens is the person that scheduled that water delivery on a regular basis doesn’t need the water, and they actually reject it, they tell Nestlé to take it back, so it’s highly inefficient.

What we’re able to do to support Nestlé is, now there’s a Helium network in many of these cities, you don’t need to rely on a scheduled system and be inefficient, you could use Just-In-Time. There are sensors in the water dispenser that know when the water is low, they understand the consumption of water for that building, or that household, and Nestlé can now provide water in a much more efficient way down the entire supply chain. That value was not able to be presented before, because Nestlé would have to build the network, or Nestle would have to pay cellular companies to get that data, and that cost outweighed the need, outweigh the problem.

But because Helium and LoRaWAN is so low-cost, meaning either one sensor that’s sending data every five minutes on our Helium network for the year, costs about $1.04 on the Helium network, a year - $1.04, that’s sending data every five minutes, that’s nuts, it’s unheard of. When we talk to enterprises about that it’s completely game changing, in their mind $1.04 per device per year is a no-brainer! There is no reason why they should not use LoRaWAN at that point. So, I think that value prop, whether it be for NanoThings, or for cold chain, or for guys like Nestle is amazing, that’s the network they’ve been waiting for.

Yeah, fully agreed. So, pulling out your crystal ball, what do you think the next decade looks like for machine communications?

If we had this conversation a month ago, or two months ago, before COVID-19, I would have said it’s going to be tough, because I think Helium and LoRaWAN and the entire IoT industry is fighting human behavior. I think human behavior dictates a lot of what happens in trends, but unfortunately for the world this event had to happen with this pandemic, it’s doing something, its forcing change of human behavior, and I think as a result of that the importance of IoT, LoRaWAN, certainly low power wide area networks, will be much more important than ever before.

I think this could be the reason why much more investment is going to happen in IoT, because I think the need for humans to go somewhere, to go check on something has to end, it’s going to end, right now because in the short term we can’t go outside, you and I going to the grocery store, we’re taking a great risk on our health, or at least the health of our families. If there was another way, what if there was another way? What if there was an automated way where a sensor could tell you there’s toilet paper at the grocery store down the street, so you didn’t have to risk your life to go realize there’s no toilet paper, of all things. But if there was a way where that was automated and you just knew, like something told you, you’re trying to buy a piece of steak or maybe some well-caught salmon from the North Atlantic, guess what? It’s available today, or its available in the next 8 hours, then you plan your day and you go get your salmon.

I feel like that’s the kind of world we should be at today, but because there is no need to force that to happen, it hasn’t happened. Fortunately, and unfortunately given the circumstances, I do think that in the next 10 years that will happen. I think at least in Silicon Valley here in the San Francisco Bay area, robotics, autonomous vehicles, all of that’s been worked on for the last 10 years, it’s been going, and now I see that kind of work accelerating. When you have more and more of those types of devices out there that need to be autonomous, that are single purpose, a LoRaWAN network is probably the best network for that.

Yes, we fully agree, social change is actually driving rapid technology adoption, even in budgeting cycles. As we’re reporting this in the middle of COVID-19 challenges, there is a meme floating around the internet now that has a little checkbox that says, ‘Who’s leading digital transformation? Your company A would be the CEO, B would be the Chief Digital Officer, and C is COVID-19! So, of course the answer is C.

You mentioned startups, and in closing we like to ask two key questions, one is what interesting startups are you seeing out there that you may have an interest in? Secondly, of course recommendations of books or resources you’d like to share with our listening audience?

It’s tough. I think being in a startup where every day of our startup life is crucial, it’s difficult for us to look outside sometimes, to look at the world and judge others, because we so engulfed with what we’re doing, we’re so maniacally focused on our mission. But I will say, the things that I think are super-interesting aren’t necessarily technological in nature, I actually find economic cleverness to be very interesting.

This goes back 10 years maybe even longer, when Uber first came out I thought that was the best idea ever, it was an economic model that can only happen because smartphones were available now, and you can hail a car, hail a ride, and not have to deal with the taxi services which in the United States are horrible, I think in Europe they’re much better. That aside, I do think the two-sided market places are incredibly interesting, and whether it be Airbnb, and then at least in San Francisco Bay area companies like Instacart and DoorDash where you have gig economy workers providing services that are localized, I find that to be incredible, incredible changes in economics and flipping economic models on its head. I really like companies that do that in general.

And as I mentioned earlier in Silicon Valley in San Francisco, I’ve seen a lot of robotics and autonomous development around autonomous robotics or sensors, those are I think very important overall. I think ultimately the startups that I think win at the end of the day, are going to be the startups that have the best user experience. The more that I’ve now been in business to consumer, B2C, or direct to consumer with Helium the more I understand that ease of use, ease of user experience, building things where our parents or our relatives, aunts and uncles are able to use is crucial for mass adoption. You have to, it doesn’t matter if your early adopters or technical or not, if you can make things that are easier, simpler, they look beautiful, that’s going to win.

Absolutely, yeah. So, any recommendations on books that inspires you?

I’ll be honest, I hate reading business books, it’s the most boring thing, so I’m not that kind of guy. But the things that I do enjoy reading are much more insightful I think, to how history and humans have developed over time. I can’t think of a book right now, but it’s usually autobiographic in nature, and I really enjoy reading about different leaders, and understanding their decision-making during certain times. Those are the kind of stories I enjoy reading for pleasure, more-so than another Crossing the Chasm or something.

It makes a lot of sense. So, Frank it has been a real pleasure learning about you, your own digital journey, Helium, and really getting a broader perspective on what the future of machine communications can look like in the future, and I agree with you, the current challenges are only going to accelerate the use cases. So, it has been a great pleasure, and we will be of course listing any resources that were named on the podcast on our website, once we publish this, and we look forward to continuing the conversation with you, and with all of our listeners in the future. So, thank you very much Frank.

Thank you, Ken, really appreciate it.

Alright, take care and thank you.

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